Cheri Jo Bates Evidence Analysis

Zodiac Revisited contributor Morf13 has provided the following documents which he obtained earlier this year. The documents pertain to mitochondrial DNA and hair analysis done on evidence from the Cheri Jo Bates murder. In particular, it was done at the request of the Riverside Police Department in an attempt to incriminate their prime suspect. Unfortunately, for them, it ended up clearing him. The analysis itself was performed between 1999 and 2000. The documents are interesting for numerous reasons, not the least of which are the significant details they provide regarding the physical evidence that was used to generate the mitochondrial DNA profile.

Have a look, and thanks to Morf13 for sharing.

 

 

Michael Cole

104 comments

  1. morf13 19 August, 2012 at 08:46 Reply

    Despite the DNA results here ruling their suspect out as the source of the DNA from the Bates crime scene, Riverside PD REFUSES to let go of him as a suspect, and in my opinion, has stubbornly and recklessly jeopardized the chances of Cheri’s case ever being solved. In addition, they seem to want to distance themselves from and possibility of Zodiac being involved in her case, despite the fact that State writing expert and primary Zodiac document examiner, Sherwood Morrill, being of the opinion that Zodiac was indeed the writer of letters received in the Bates case. Furthermore,there ARE some files in the FBI reports that seem to indicate there was a comparison made between Bates case prints & Zodiac case prints, BUT, there is no mention of the results which seems a bit curious. I wonder if there is a match that authorities are keeping to themselves. Also, there has been extensive discussions on various forums and sites, in which people have noted some common spelling errors,etc between the Bates ‘confession letter’, and Zodiac’s writing. Riverside felt that the details in the confession letter were known only by the killer, so in my mind, this doesnt do ANYTHING to rule Zodiac out as possibly being Cheri’s killer. Personally, I tend to think Cheri’s killer was likely around her age. The evidence suggests that she went off to a dimly lighted area for some time with her killer before she was attacked. I dont think she would have went off with a stranger, and I dont think she would have went off with a guy that was alot older then her. I think she felt at ease with and likely knew her killer, and didnt feel unsafe going with him, and this suggests a person that was around her age, possibly a fellow Ramona HS graduate or RCC student. If you have read the Zodiac police reports for the Berryessa attack, you will know that surviving victim Bryan Hartnell described Zodiac’s voice as being likely in his 20’s, and Officer Slaight who took the call after the attack, described Zodiac’s voice as sounding “in his early 20’s”. Both Hartnell’s and Slaight’s descriptions of Zodiac’s voice, puts Zodiac in the same age group as people that Cheri would have known or associated with in Riverside back in 1966. I have looked one by one at every senior that graduated with Cheri from Ramona HS in 1966, and found one guy that moved to Napa in 1968 or so, and another who moved to Vallejo living on Webb St up until 1974(when the last Z letter was mailed), when he moved back down to Riverside. More information and research is required for these 2 men in my opinion.

    • jeckyl 22 August, 2012 at 10:48

      I agree with most of what you have to say regarding Cheri and if you are correct the trail begins with her murder. I have looked at Cheri graduating class but haven’t gone into your detail. It would seem her murderer was either a classmate or someone who lived in the neighborhood. I am interested in writing about Cheri as a person and not just as a murder victum, do you have any contacts that could give me some insight as to who Cheri was in real life. Additionally I would be interested in knowing who were the two classmates of Cheri’s that you mentioned.

    • Zodiac Revisited 22 August, 2012 at 21:08

      I’ve always been troubled by RPD’s unwillingness to truly consider the possibility that the Zodiac was, in fact, the man who murdered Cheri Jo Bates. In my mind, there is an awful lot circumstantial evidence that ties the crimes of the Zodiac to the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.

      Personally, I feel that the “brush offs” line from “the confession” letter was partially symbolic and partially a red herring. I doubt that the killer actually knew Cheri Jo.

      That’s my $.02, FWIW…

    • Ron Tressler 4 October, 2012 at 16:06

      Agreeing with you, when the Police or Sheriff get “stuck” on one suspect, view is limited. The true killer(s) of Cheri Jo Bates should be arrested without prejudice, even when the cover-up artist used to date a billionaire, the killer is a man who will kill again, who has encouraged a team of killers. The killer of Cheri Jo Bates had the wounds visible and the haircut that was done to cover up the scalp removed was obvious. The killer(s) have continued to murder witnesses because the arrest was somehow bullied out the of law’s hands. The case was allowed to go “political” and be in conjunction with political events, so the arrest was shut down. We must commend the California Law enforcement community, howevever, for growing through the trends that hinder law, trends of politics, big money, big oil, big actors and big writers, and big thugs who killed Cheri Jo Bates and think that killing is sport. This group, and there was and is a group, promoted fear and they are like the Wizzard of OZ with bullying as their only curtain. They recently murdered some elderly people and are trying to murder the witnesses on that. They kill their own family and friends to keep the cover up game going. The man with the scar had a chance to recover from violence, and maybe he still does. Maybe if he will decide to walk in and turn himself and his accomplice older sister in he could teach us why the case was so hindered. Wouldn’t he be safer with the law around him (and her) allowed to tell the truth of who trained them to kill and why? Their story affects the times and we could learn from them, if they realized we want to hear the “why”. The politics that shut down this case were many, the Kennedy evidence transfer where a locker number nine was empty and the evidence to archives of JFK artifacts was not allowed to take place. Exact same time period as the Cheri Jo murder and in Riverside. Bully political teams on all sides of this case. Now, we have lost out on learning because the case has gone unarrested. The Riverside Police have enough to go at the warrants and arrest, they can even find some answers without warrant. The community must stand with the Riverside PD and get the arrest for a safer California. Believe me, Detective Shumway, the former and retired detective on this case gave his all to working the case and making the pleas for confessions and he got them. His work is effectual and we will get this case. It is the dynamic of the killers that must be broken, the kill together buddy club of the past. When the killers murdered their own mom, a world war II nurse, enough was enough. These people are already outed, it is just a matter of time…..Some say the killer approached Cheri Jo asking for the time. The witness was asked for the time, and the case is closer to arrest for that harassment the witness took. Pray hard. Let’s get this arrest.

    • tw 7 July, 2013 at 01:51

      My thoughts are that Z was a coworker or associate of Paul Stine’s and that he was very jealous of Paul’s reported ambitions, likeability, ability to get along with others and of Paul’s soon to be awarded Master’s degree in Business. Basically, a sociopath who lacked all the things that Paul had going for him. I would expect a failed insurance agent, perhaps with Allstate Insurance, who attended Allstate’s new agent programs in southern Cal in the 1960s and who had also served in Air Force and pulled duty in England. Would look for person with ambidexterity, wore military-issued eye glasses occasionally and was older than Paul by at least ten years. Someone who was probably spoken to during initial investigation but passed by. Expect that the other victims were part of a plan to mask the murder’s association with Paul. That and the murder’s need to feel superior to police by rubbing their noses in their inability to identify him tells me that Z was a wannabe cop who may have served as a sky cop (security police) in the Air Force but couldn’t get hired by civilian police departments. Would look at somebody who couldn’t cut it in the insurance field either and probably left that arena shortly after PS was killed. Z probably worked as a security police for malls or stores or protecting credit card blanks for a credit card company in SF. Somebody who lived in Pleasanton (follow the southern radian on the Mt. Diablo letter. Probably owned wingwalkers boots size 10 but he probably bought them smaller with the idea to stuff his size 11 plus feet in them and was probably slimmer that suspect was reported (could have worn stomach padding or a bullet proof vest under clothing.) Look also for a man who had associations or distributed the Berkeley Barb, the SF Oracle, and the publishing company in Palo Alto that printed The Whole Earth Catalog and who may have had car newspaper routes. Someone who grew up in Riverside/Ontario in the 30s along with Joseph Bates but had a crush on Cheri’s mother. Hence to reference to “your daughters” in the Bates letter. Someone who eventually (after serving in military) settled in Bay Area.

    • jeckyl51 8 July, 2013 at 18:42

      Interesting, but the Bates moved to Riverside in 1959, they came from Nebraska, sort of kills that part of the theory.

  2. morf13 23 August, 2012 at 04:21 Reply

    @ Jeckyl, the only people that would really know Cheri would have been her friends & Family, and they are pretty tight lipped, I guess they don’t want to open old wounds.

  3. morf13 23 August, 2012 at 04:32 Reply

    @Mike Cole…I have to disagree with you on Cheri’s killer not knowing her. She apparently walked off with her killer into a dimly lit area, and it appears that she spent quite a bit of time with him over in the shadows before she was attacked. I just cant see an 18 year old college girl walking into a dark area with somebody she doesnt know, and spending time with him. I think she felt comfortable enough with him and knew him enough that she didnt think there was anything to worry about, and again because she was 18, and most 18 year olds wouldn’t be hanging out with older men, I tend to think that her killer was around her age, and likely a schoolmate, maybe her age or a year or two older. It truly is a shame that RPD has just written this off as no relation to the Zodiac case, they are completely ignoring Sherwood Morrill’s opinion that the Bates case letters were written by Zodiac. So how the police could simply turn a blind eye to that is rediculous. According to some sketchy details, I am pretty sure that RPD thinks that the reason their favorite suspect’s DNA didnt match the DNA from under Cheri’s nails, is because their POI had help when he killed Cheri, and that the DNA belongs to this 2nd man. I really dont believe there was a 2nd man that attacked Cheri, but RPD does. In addition, I have an FBI memo that requested the FBI compare Bates case prints to Zodiac case prints, but I dont have any memo that shows the results. I wonder if the prints DID match, and police are keeping it a secret, or if they did not match, and that’s why RPD is so sure Zodiac wasnt involved in Cheri’s case. We might not ever know. In the meantime, the two individuals that graduated with Cheri, and then wound up living in Vallejo & Napa during the Z murders, are of major interes to me.

    • Zodiac Revisited 24 August, 2012 at 19:36

      One of the fascinating characteristics of this case is that while many things are known, few things are truly understood. Therefore, there is much to interpret which, in turn, leads to numerous areas for disagreement.

      From my perspective, it’s all good. Different people having different opinions may well be a contributing factor in the case eventually being solved. As Mark Twain once said: “It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races.”

      Having said that, personally, I believe the same person who murdered Cheri Jo also murdered Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards (near Santa Barbara) in 1963 as well as Johnny Ray and Joyce Ann Swindle in 1964 (in San Diego). If you believe this, IMO, it becomes less likely that Cheri Jo knew her killer.

      In fact, I believe none of these victims knew their killer. Furthermore, I believe that, mostly, they all fit the cliche: they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. In particular, I believe crime scene locations and characteristics were the primary factors which drove the killer to select his victims.

      Another point that contributes to my belief in this area is the sophistication of the ruse. This is a significant instance of something I call “Premeditated Situational Control.” It’s very similar to the manipulation in the cases of Lake Berryessa and Kathleen Johns (both of which were, undoubtedly, strangers). If Cheri Jo had known her assailant, there is a strong probability that he would have chosen a different approach. The ruse in question was specifically designed to create trust in an unsuspecting victim and, IMO, was required because she was a stranger.

      That’s my take. Hopefully, someday, we’ll know for certain what the situation actually was…

    • G Gluckman 24 August, 2012 at 20:15

      Hi Mike,

      I am interested in your statement that “[you] believe crime scene locations and characteristics were the primary factors which drove the killer to select his victims.”

      In the course of pursuing my theories, I have arrived at the same conclusion, at least as far as the Paul Stine murder and the Kathleen Johns kidnapping are concerned. (And I am curious about others.)

      That said, I strongly suspect we have come to the same conclusion for very different reasons, and with very different results. Still, the similarity of principle (for lack of a better term) piques my curiousity.

      Would you mind expanding on how you see this “principle” being applied?

      Many thanks,

      G

    • Zodiac Revisited 24 August, 2012 at 21:57

      Hi G,

      I do believe that the killer, when acting under the persona of “the Zodiac,” attacked essentially random victims which happened to be in areas which he chose based, partially, on an element of geography. However, that’s kind of a big subject and I’m not quite ready to fully address it here.

      During the timeframe of the Southern California murders, I believe the killer was merely operating from a position of practicality in terms of locating crime scenes that were conducive to his murders. The San Diego murders involved a “sniper’s nest” which clearly had been identified ahead of time. Cheri Jo’s crime scene also likely was selected ahead of time – the two houses between which Cheri Jo’s body was found were abandoned, having recently been purchased by the University.

      In the case of the Santa Barbara murders, which were likely the killer’s first, the location may not have been selected ahead of time. However, it was clearly isolated and facilitated the commission of the murders in several ways.

    • JIMB3468 24 January, 2013 at 11:59

      It’s just so hard for me to imagine that 64 students in the library and no one notices Cheri Jo having trouble with her car in the parking lot ? How close did she park to the entrance,,,most women knowing it will be dark when they leave will park as close to the entrance as possible ? But what do I know !

    • CiCi 2 March, 2017 at 12:18

      I have to say I kind of agree with you. I’ve followed this case since the 80’s and I’ve looked at pretty much every suspect they’ve (the public, authorities,authors,etc.) presented and, IMO, with the evidence presented, I firmly believe that the Bates murder was part of the beginning of the Zodiac killings. I found it surprising in some documentaries (and thought maybe it was just left out..) that they didn’t include Cheri Jo as a victim of Zodiac with the other murders..I thought this link was definitive since I do recall Zodiac bragging about Cheri Jo’s murder and taking ‘credit’ for it. In all the years that they thought that Arthur Leigh Allen was considered to be Zodiac I never really accepted him as being Zodiac…yes, he was weird and seemed to fit in a lot of ways but I just didn’t see it as being him. I don’t think Zodiac would’ve been as successful fitting into everyday society being a sociopath. Yes, there was some resemblance in the composite put together but not enough to convince me. Now if someone were to tell me that possible Allen was in on it with someone else I could buy that…Allen seemed to know just a bit too much but they couldn’t pin DNA to him. Now…when I saw this photo of Ross Sullivan and that he KNEW Cheri Jo I could immediately see him as being a potential suspect. I know there was some circumstantial evidence (such as from the RCC college library) supposedly to be from Sullivan directed toward Cheri Jo. The photo of Sullivan bears a STRIKING resemblance to the composite photo..and I think that the Zodiac didn’t immediately take credit for the ’66 killing because he possibly screwed up and left some evidence. I don’t know..stranger things have happened. Do I think that they’ll ever solve this…probably not…case is too old…too many suspects..too many years have passed..but it would be nice to give closure to the families and loved ones of the victims.C

  4. G Gluckman 24 August, 2012 at 22:39 Reply

    Hi Mike,

    Let me swish that around a bit…

    The killer starts out with an unsophisticated, unrefined, instinctive, predator’s sense of location. This develops into a very pragmatic, premeditated methodology.

    Then one day, he begins to operate on a new level: he takes on the persona of the Zodiac, and begins to use location in an even newer way–perhaps as a blend of both pragmatica and enigmatica.

    I am not sure if this in any way summarizes your thinking, and I do not intend to press you on the matter, since you have indicated this is not the appropriate venue (or should I say, location).

    Whichever way you are going with your theory, I am eager to hear more.

    G

    • Zodiac Revisited 25 August, 2012 at 08:23

      Yes, that’s pretty much in line with my thinking. Although, I would point out that even the selection of the first crime scene was somewhat sophisticated in that I believe the killer looked for a area that would support his murderous activities. Other aspects of that crime, however, were certainly unsophisticated – he made a number of mistakes his first time out, in my estimation. But, he was learning.

      The murder of Cheri Jo Bates was an important evolutionary step in that the murder itself became insufficient to satisfy his psychological needs and hence he first experimented with the idea of augmenting his actual crimes by taunting through writing.

      Then, sometime between 1966 and 1968, the killer likely moved from Southern California to the San Francisco Bay Area. In some sense, he was “starting anew.” This time, however, he recognized that individual, seemingly unrelated murders were no longer capable of satisfying his pathology. Therefore, he set out to develop a persona, under which he could take responsibility for multiple murders and, in so doing, terrorize the Bay Area.

      That’s the way I see it. At some point in the future, I will go into all this in more detail…

  5. jeckyl 11 October, 2012 at 07:55 Reply

    Does anyone have a map depicting the murder scene, with the location of her car, her body and the orientations? Seems that there is not much information other than verbal descriptions. I know the area was renovated 40 years ago, but there must be clues in that information. From what I am able to piece together, her body was found between the two houses on Terracina, facing south, her car was parked down the street from the library on Terracina. I think a map would make it easier to come to realistic conclusions. For instance if what I surmise is correct she was heading away from the library, car, and friends, therefore she must have been in the company of someone she knew. The scuffle happened where her body was discovered which appears to be 50 to 75 feet down the alley. One thing that perplexed me is that her keys are in the car. Most people have their car and house key on the same key chain, so why are her keys in the car. It is information like this that I gleaned from the web that is suspect. Does anyone have definitive’s?

  6. jeckyl 16 October, 2012 at 13:42 Reply

    Just a thought regarding the time of the murder. Is it plausable, that the murder did take place between 9 and 9:30 PM, remember that the day before was the switch from daylight saving time. It was getting dark at 6PM in riverside and would have been night at 9PM. The odds that Cheri would have spent an hour or more trying to repair her car or talking to someone, even someone she knew, seem not to be her style. I certainly wouldn’t waste time, but would want to solve the problem either by getting to a phone to call a relative or a repair shop. Would be interesating to know if there were any calls placed to the Bates residence during that time period. Therefore it is possible that the witnesses where mistaken with their times, I have been wrong a day after the time change. If they were basing their time on the outdoor conditions it would seem to be 10:30 when it was really 9:30, just a thought.

    • Zodiac Revisited 18 October, 2012 at 21:40

      There were multiple witnesses indicating they heard screams at approximately 10:30. Without compelling evidence to suggest otherwise, we have to accept these facts as they are – even though they are rather puzzling.

      I sincerely doubt that Cheri Jo left at closing – there would have been too many people around. I suspect she left considerably before closing. I also doubt she stayed with the killer for a significant amount of time of her own free will. For me, this leads to the rather uncomfortable conclusion that the killer lured her between the houses and kept here there for an extended length of time, under the threat of violence, before murdering her. Whether the killer let this time pass because he was having difficultly committing to the deed (he did demonstrate multiple hours of inaction when confronted with unexpected circumstances in the case of Kathleen Johns) or whether he was purposely waiting for a more opportune moment in time is impossible to know.

      Based on the killer’s other crimes, he may well have had some story that would have convinced Cheri Jo that if she just did as the killer asked – however bizarre that request may have seemed – that she would be allowed to leave, unharmed. Of course, this ploy would have been used solely for the purposes of manipulation.

  7. jeckyl 18 October, 2012 at 12:11 Reply

    We know that Cheri was at home before 5:30 PM and obviously had eaten dinner around this time or before. According to the autopsy report, the contents of her stomach indicated that she had eaten between 2 and 4 hours before death. Since all indications are the she was at the library from 6 to 9PM the time of death would have been between 9 and 9:30PM.

  8. jeckyl 19 October, 2012 at 07:11 Reply

    Noted, but the screams are circumstantial, they were not definitive enough for calls to have been made to police, they must have been heard at a distance since the area was being renovated, which opens up a larger area of emanation. If we discount the screams we will have solved the time puzzle. It is also possible that someone, a younger person, came upon the body and reacted by screaming, and not wanting to get involved did not call police. Just a thought given that there seems to be an aloofness in Riverside. Also the area that the college was in was not affluent and tended to be lower class which would fit with a persons non involvement and a tendency to steer clear of police. I grew up in such an environment and know first hand how people react.

    If Cheri did not leave at closing, how do you explain the person who saw someone in the shadows in the alley and exchanged a greeting, during that time period?

    Could the killer have kept her in the alley for any amount of time with a knife, I’m thinking not, a gun, yes, but not a knife. Then again he could have had a gun but used the knife for the murder. Here again we run into the possibility of someone seeing them in the alley, while leaving the library. For me, at least, it makes sense that the killer had minimal time with Cheri to complete his deed. The police commented, due to crime scene analysis, that it appeared to be a crime of passion, the killer might have planned to kill her but hoped she would come to her senses and have a relationship with him. Twisted thinking, but so is murder. There is a psychological profile that fits such an individual. The only way that a jilted, pseudo suitor, which the perpetrator appears to be, to get control is through death.

    I am not convinced that this is the Zodiac. The Zodiac used opportunity to commit his crimes, he did not disable random vehicles. He disabled the Katherine John’s vehicle with the victims knowledge, or should we say unknowing consent. Of course, he could have randomly picked Cheri and followed her into the parking spot, disabled her vehicle and waited for her return. But we need to remember, that from all accounts Cheri was not the type of person to go anywhere with strangers. Which leads us to the killer being someone she knew, which also leads, if we believe that this was the Zodiac, someone from Riverside.

    We all know, as did Cheri that her only hope of getting away , if what you say happened, would have been to take an opportune time and run. Even if the killer had a gun, which there is no evidence, it is very difficult to hit any one by drawing and firing, (former military) it is more luck than skill with not aimed shots. You have to ask the question, would the killer have chanced being discovered by firing. I still think that a variation of Occums Razor is the way to approach this crime.

    I think we all get carried away with the possibilities and perceptions and wander too far from the facts.

    • Zodiac Revisited 20 October, 2012 at 18:26

      Well, I think you and I have different interpretations of this crime, and I doubt they’re going to be reconciled in any meaningful way.

      The following two paragraphs are from the October 31, 1966 edition of the Riverside Press:

      A woman who lives in the vicinity of the slaying and who declined to identify herself to newsmen, told police she heard “an awful scream” between 10:15 and 10:45.

      “Then I heard a muted scream, and then a loud sound like an old car being started up. This was about two minutes after I heard the scream.” The woman did not call police last night.

      In later reporting, the woman’s claims were corroborated and the time frame was narrowed down.

      Applying Occam’s Razor in this context suggests, precisely, that we should conclude these screams occurred during Cheri Jo’s struggle for her life.

      You wrote:

      If Cheri did not leave at closing, how do you explain the person who saw someone in the shadows in the alley and exchanged a greeting, during that time period?

      Can you please tell me your source for this?

  9. jeckyl 24 October, 2012 at 09:13 Reply

    Agreed, I think that discussing ideas is beneficial, it is not about who has the better idea, it is about assisting in some way by churning up reasonable possibilities.
    It has bothered me regarding the screams, the time frame just doesn’t match the difinitive forensics. The autopsy reported that Cheri had eated between 2 – 4 hours preceeding death. We know that she died within minutes of being attacked. Mr. Bates returned home at 5:30PM and found the note from Cheri regarding going to the Library. Therefore, Cheri had eated before 5:30 which would put the time of death at 9:30PM at the latest. Exploring this a little further, is it possible that the killer beat Cheri senseless at 9:30PM and returned after 10PM to finish the job by sliting her throat. Is it possible her body went into shock after the beating and digestion stopped which would explain the stomach contents but not the screams, since in this scenerio she wouldn’t have been conscious to scream. So it seems we are back at the beginning, either the autopsy is flawed or the screams are not connected to the case.

    Regarding the person in the alley, I saw this on a website which I am trying to find, I suppose it can be discounted.

    Whether or not we admit the screams, the old car starting, or even the watch they are all circumstantial. the screams and car could possibly be explained by other circumstances, and unless the killer is found the watch also could be circumstantial, it wasn’t an expensive item and it was torn where most leather watch bands fail. It is possible someone else owned the watch and had nothing to do with the crime. There are stories about Barnett and a friend returning to the scene later that evening to look for the watch, but this story was reported after the facts were know and I find it difficult to believe that anyone returning to the scene with a flashlight, as it was reported, would not have found the watch. It would seem that we could discount that jailhouse confession regarding looking for the watch and put the watch into a collaberating role after the killer is found.

    Like a said before the key is with her friends, someone knows something, most likely the police also know from a friends testimony that is why they are fixated with the one suspect.

  10. jeckyl 14 November, 2012 at 09:44 Reply

    The FBI files are revealing, if we look at the first file the blocked out area pertaining to the suspect indicates 18 or 19 character spaces. Additionally, we can deduce that the first name (11) is longer than the last (7), they would not abreviate the name at the end of a line. We can base this on the fact that Cheri Jo Bates is configured this way and not as Bates, Cheri Jo, which would change the letter count. If we assume that this person was in Cheri’s class then we can narrow down the number of persons who could fit. C. W. seems to fit the configuration, additionally there does not seem to be a web presence for C.W. which would fit if he was out of the country.

  11. JIMB3468 24 January, 2013 at 12:15 Reply

    Anyway , my close friend that is a retired Police Detective (Chicago PD, Homicide) feels this case is very strange considering the little amount of evidence released…some thing is terribly wrong there! He also feels the Zodiac is not the killer of Cheri Jo Bates ! smells like a cover up has taking place for some reason !

    • jeckyl51 26 January, 2013 at 12:12

      Very interesting, a cover-up, the obvious reasons are that the killer was either known to someone or was actually someone high up in the police department, wealthy member of the local society or a politician. Secrets can be difficult to keep, so that compartmentalizing them is the most efficient way to keep them secret. Therefore, someone with appreciably power would need to steer the investigation without the detectives on the case realizing the cover-up. That would seem to explain the Riverside Police fixating on the Barnett character. Unfortunately for those covering up they did not realize in 1966 that DNA could eventually reveal their ruse. It must also be noted that the Prosecutor felt that there was not enough evidence to bring Barnett to trial. Could this be that the prosecutor realized that a trial without enough evidence would be futile or was it because he knew the killer or suspected the real killer and did not want to self incriminate himself if something went wrong in the future. Were there any clues in Cheri diary, probably not, since the detectives would have been lead to the killer and from all accounts the detectives were stymied? Now if we take the tact that the detectives were in on the cover-up that would pull in the prosecutor, Chief of Police and other individuals in city government. This would not have seemed to be possible, especially after so many years, someone would have talked. Then again, if it is a cover-up there might be other complications. Rigged elections, disappearances, potential witness incarcerations or worse. Barnett’s friend who supposedly made a jailhouse confession implicating Barnett might have been influenced by the prosecutor or someone in the police department to make the confession lending credence to the Barnett involvement. Barnett supposedly moved to Guam, was this in reaction to being hounded by police. Getting the DNA sample when he returned to California for a visit in 1999 would also fit into the cover-up idea, the detectives were not in on the cover-up so they were just following leads not knowing that Barnett was not the murder. Gets pretty convoluted but possible, somebody knows the murderer.

  12. JIMB3468 24 January, 2013 at 12:47 Reply

    Also, can anybody tell me if the picture of Cheri Jo in the library,was taken on the day she was mudered ? Who took the picture?…and was she with some female friends as stated on one web site…did they leave together ? how far or close from the entrance to the library was she parked? (most women will park close to any entrance,especially if they know they will be leaving after dark ) ! Lots of unanswered questions here for me.. What happened to that young lady really has bothered me for along time ! I tried to get in touch with Bill Kurtis..(Cold Case Files)..and have not rceived a reply as of yet. This case needs to be told Nation wide !!!!!!!!

    • jeckyl51 26 January, 2013 at 16:19

      Agreed, it probably wouldn’t hurt to have some addition exposure but Bill Kurtis is an actor, you need to contact the writers of that show. Since those shows are purchased it might take some detective work to find the writers.

  13. Alex Lewis 25 January, 2013 at 11:25 Reply

    A clue can be found as to weather Z was responsible for Bates murder in his letters. Zodiac refered to his victims as ‘Slaves for the afterlife’. In Zodiac’s Nov 9th, 1969 letter, he ends it with ‘To prove i am the Zodiac, ask the Vallejo cop about my gun scope i used to start my collecting of slaves’. Here Zodiac is refering to his Lake Herman Rd murders. So, Zodiac is saying, in plain English, that his first murder were the ones at Lake Herman. Then, in early to mid 1971, Paul Averly writes an article in the Chronicle newpaper that accuses Zodiac of possibly being responsible for Bates murder. Then, in March, 1971 Zodiac writes “I do have to give them credit for stubmling my riverside activity”. So Zodiac only took credit for Bates murder, after Averly had wrote an article that cast suspicion on Z being involved. 16 Months prior to that, he had written a letter claiming that Betty Lou and David Faraday was when he ‘Started collecting of slaves for the afterlife), meaning started his murderous campaign. This doesn’t conclusively rule Z out as having been Bates murderer, but it does, in my opinion, cast serious doubt on his being involved.

    • Jorge 28 January, 2014 at 05:46

      This is because all the San Francisco murders were about this little psychotic fantasy he had created. The murder of Cheri Jo Bates was personal.

  14. Alex Lewis 26 January, 2013 at 04:28 Reply

    This case need only look at how the capture of The Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway, finally came. Green River Case (GRC) was almost identical in the way the case went, what happened, and why. GR Killer murdered dozzens of women between 1982 and 84. A ‘Green River Task Force’ was created to work full time on catching the culprate. But after 1984, the murders suddenly stopped. As time went on the task force reduced in number, untill it was officially disbanded. Detective David Reichert could never forget pulling body after body out of the river, and was never content with the case resting on the ‘Cold Case’ shelf. 20 years later, Reichert was promoted to Sheriff, a position that would allow him to re-open any case within his jurisdiction that be unsolved. On the day he was sworn in as Sheriff, the first task he peformed as Sheriff, was to re-open the GRC without delay and ordered that every piece of Scientific Evidence be re-tested, and all DNA found on 4 of the victims be compared for consistancy to see if the DNA on all four victims comes from one indavidual, and the test results were positive match, the same man had been with all four women shortly before the died. Then Reinchert fed the DNA into the DNA Data-Base and hit ‘Search’. The computer took the DNA it had been fed, and checked it against all the profiles it had stored of known offenders. The next words to appear on the screen were ‘Match Found: Mr Gary Leon Ridgway’, and the rest is history. It took a determined man 21 years and a promotion before this case was solved. Gary Ridgway was suspected and interviewed in 1984 by police, but no evidence came to light to charge him. Then, in 1987, Ridgway was arrested for soliciting a prostitute, a crime for wich his DNA was taken, along with a hair and finger print sample. The DNA would sit in the evidence room from 1987 untill 2001, when Reinchert re-opened the case and used todays technology to go back and test old evidence. My point is this, it took 1 man and his determination, born out of compassion and empathy for the countless women he had to pull out of the river 20 years before, to re-open this case, and solve it straight away. The evidence to capture Ridgway had been there for 14 years, silently waiting for someone to have just one more look. It turns out that Ridgway met and settled down in 1985, mayying her 3 years later in 1988. This seems to be the likely cause for the suddent disappearence of the Green River Killer, coupled with police questioning him in 1984 also. I’ll finish by para-phrasing what Sheriff Reinhert said regarding the GRC, ‘To other colleagues on the Task Force, catching this man was just a job. They would go home at night and leave this case at the office. I wished i could also have done that, but i went home with this case, i woke up 2, 3, 4 am pondering over something we may have missed. Finding him consumed me to the point of obsession. My family asked me to walk away and let it go, it was over. They didn’t pull body after nude body out of the river. They didn’t have to smell the stench of decaying flesh. They didn’t see the faces of these dozens of yong and middle aged women as they were placed in a body bag. They didn’t see how they had been discarded like some piece of meat. I swore to thoes girls ipulled from that river, i would do my best to catch this man, and that i intended to do.’

  15. JIM3468 17 April, 2013 at 12:37 Reply

    Just another thought..who can be sure that the hair sample taken from cher jo bates,(at the crime scene found in her hand), was the same one tested 32 years later ?

  16. jeckyl51 6 May, 2013 at 16:09 Reply

    Yes, since there is proof the hair is the same we must assume that the police in Riverside followed procedure and are able to link the hair to the crime scene. I guess it is possible that if we assume the hair is from the time of the murder it could be from an accomplice. There were footprints at the scene that matched a military type shoe, boomdockers, I suppose it is possible that the perps wore the same size shoe. The easiest explaination is that there was one perp whose hair was recovered. The prime suspect might be a dead end after all. It has always seemed questionable that this perp committed this crime then stopped killing. If it was a rage killing as the police believe then this person probably has a history of violence toward women, not necessarily murder. Therefore a search of domestic violence cases in the area in the years after the murder might be fruitful. The letter a month later does point to someone disturbed, since this person did not act on his threats we might assume he died, left the area, became a priest, or became an abuser. I guess a search of Cheri classmates might reveal some leads. I am also assuming that the police in Riverside have already investigated these possibilities. It would be helpful to know what evidence exists and what leads were followed.

  17. Dr. Lawrence D'Antonio 15 June, 2013 at 14:34 Reply

    Too all, Many have wondered what happened to me, but I (and my work) have not disappeared. Before you push the delete button Morf, keep in mind that I have picked you. I would recommend more attention to the actual physical evidence of the Cheri Jo Bates case including the letters. The greatest obstruction to the solving of this case has been removed and it will be solved. There is very exciting developements in the case occurring now. The author of the confession letter has been established and there is a new suspect. Probable cause for further investigation has been established. The ball is in your court Morf. Do you punt or run with it? DrD

  18. JIM3468 8 July, 2013 at 20:40 Reply

    JECKYL..
    Is anyone aware of the sick cop (Riverside, PD), that was arrested for child molestation..He was the same cop that used to take Cheri Jo’s diary home every night..was he possibly investigated for her murder ?

  19. BATMAN 11 July, 2013 at 08:54 Reply

    Does anyone know what Ross Sullivan looked like? He was the fat smelly nerd that worked in the library. He did not come back for about one week after her murder. He is in the book that the RIVERSIDE COMMUNITY COLLEGE puts out once a year in 1966…anyone know if there is a pic of him?????

  20. Sophia 18 July, 2013 at 20:41 Reply

    I havn’t read a huge amount on the Zodiac as of yet, however I noticed ‘confession’ letter for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates possibly penned by the Zodiac.. It seems like it would have been someone who knew her as he makes reference to the fact that he was ‘MAKING HER PAY FOR THE BRUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR’. If so, then is it a possibility that her killer went to her high school? Also noticed that the carving found on the desk at Riverside City College was signed ‘rh’, could this stand for Ramona High the high school that Cheri attended? And was Cheri Brunette with blue eyes, as in the ‘confession’ it states ‘OR MAYBE SHE WILL BE THE SHAPELY BLUE EYED BROWNETT THAT SAID NO WHEN I ASKED HER FOR A DATE IN HIGH SCHOOL.’
    Just a few thoughts I had 🙂

  21. Sophia 19 July, 2013 at 19:24 Reply

    So I found a copy of a 1964 Ramona High Year book online, and coincidentally there was a symbol in an illustration like the one the Zodiac used to sign his letters with… what does this symbol even mean?

  22. Gerald Katz 4 January, 2014 at 01:07 Reply

    I was wondering if anyone had yet figured out who killed Cheri Jo Bates and others and was referred to as the Zodiac killer. Well a few have made assumptions but the are looking at a few documents and trying to guess based on what they have read. I see a number of people still want to know more. I went to Ramona High and graduated in 1964. Cheri Jo was a sophomore when I was a senior and was close to Bonnie Bartlett who was dating and later married Tim Sullivan, who was one of my best friends. I later met Tim’s brother Ross. Ross was in his mid 20s and was very big, well over 6 feet tall and more than 250 pounds. He could be depressed or very agitated. I once dated the same girl, Barbara Renolds, he liked and when he found out and threatened me, I was more scared than I have ever been of someone else. He was one of the people who were part of the RCC environment and we crossed paths occasionally but has many mutual friends. I distinctly remember the time she was murdered. It was right around the time I was supposed to be drafted but an incredibly beautiful peace loving hippy, named Noelle Jette, was making out with me all trough the night so I missed my induction. Ross had had often hung out at Noelle’s and there were some sheep skins hanging up outside her home. Noel said that at some time earlier Ross had killed, butchered and killed some sheep. This was very unusual for anyone we knew to kill much less butcher an animal. I heard that the police had come by Noelle’s seen the skins and asked questions about Ross. Apparently they did not think that this was suspicious. Me and many friends thought it might be Ross but it was only a conjecture. Several years later I saw Tim who came down from Canada where he and Bonnie had moved during the Viet Nam war. Tim told me that he was sure his brother Ross was the Zodiac killer. Ross was a writer, poet and painter but also a psychotic whose parents had died when he was in his teens and was extremely passionate, love starved, jealous and resentful. He left Riverside after Cheri Jo Bates was killed and moved to Northern California where he would alternately be committed to mental hospitals and be released. He resided at times in San Francisco and Santa Cruz. Tim told me that Ross had died, and a few years later I heard that Tim had also passed away from cancer. I do not know if any of the people involved in these events are still alive, so I thought I would tell what I knew about the tragic events nearly 50 years ago.

    • BATMAN 9 January, 2014 at 09:43

      GERALD KATZ….Thanks for the Ross info…wondering…did he have dark hair or light hair? Did he have any other brothers beside Tim? Did Tim also move to Northern California at any time? I am interested who John Sullivan was in connection with Ross. He found Ross dead. The Zodiac killer was supposed to be short…like 5’8″ although people were confused about how tall he was. Did Tim also attend Riverside college? Cheri Jo Bates murder is connected by that desk. Did Ross come out of Patton Hospital? He has been possibly framed for the Bates murder. That murder was done with a small bad knife that may have been used as a last resort. That person did not come to that area with murder on their mind.

    • BATMAN 11 January, 2014 at 08:27

      I cannot verify any of the names of Bartlett or Tim Sullivan through Ramona High School. I would like to know what Donna’s last name was that worked at Riverside Bank and if you knew Stephanie. These two were the last people that had contact with Cheri. The bizarre behavior of her father on that day is the reason no one was arrested. Did Ross have any friends? What do you mean by painter…like in canvas or bedrooms???? Did you know Robert Barnett? THANK YOU to anyone with any info

    • BATMAN 15 January, 2014 at 08:24

      You have confirmed that Ross kept going in and out of mental institutes…what for?
      Do you know if he was arrested? Last question on this topic…since you knew John…is he still alive? I have a cousin that knew a John Sullivan that was in operas and stage plays in Northern Calif. Thanks to anyone out there.

  23. JIM3468 10 January, 2014 at 14:20 Reply

    Interesting.. I have a hard time beleiving a man 6 2 250 would have to use a tiny knife to silence Cheri Jo ! I guess it’s possible..did this Ross have a habit of carrying knives with him ?

  24. Gerald Katz 11 January, 2014 at 20:33 Reply

    John Sullivan graduated from Ramona in 1963. He was Tim’s older brother. Ross was older still didn’t meet him till after high school.

    • BATMAN 14 January, 2014 at 10:19

      When did Tim leave Riverside? Did he go to the northern part of the state or directly to Canada? Did you know their father? Did you know Stephanie or her boyfriend?

  25. Mike Morford 18 January, 2014 at 15:42 Reply

    This Ross Sullivan stuff has always been pretty interesting. Multiple people hae tried unsuccessfully to get a photo of Ross. I kvae some info on Ross,and a little on his Family, but not a whole lot. Definitely, alot of what the Librarians mentioned, was indeed true of Ross

  26. BATMAN 22 January, 2014 at 09:06 Reply

    Any info on Timothy and John Sullivan from anyone? Another poster has stated these were the brothers of Ross. Apparently they were in Riverside in the 1960’s. THANK YOU

    • BATMAN 22 February, 2014 at 09:05

      I can’t see anything. File does not exist…please try again. There would be no reason not to have a photo published on him…he is dead. You cannot prosecute a dead person.

    • BATMAN 5 March, 2014 at 08:19

      Mike…Ross Sullivan is the killer of Paul Stine. The only thing that would rule him out is being overseas that evening or in jail/prison. Nothing points away from him 100% points to him. You have to believe he is the Zodiac or is involved with the Zodiac. There are some things that you can check in his recent past: SANTA CRUZ from 1967-1977 any businesses still open today that may remember Ross Sullivan. This is through old phonebooks or even on the internet. A business stating…I HAVE BEEN IN BUSINESS OVER 40 YEARS.” Any teachers still alive at Riverside College may be a waste of time, but the students would be another key. Glendale High is very remote…he was too young and his mother was not dead yet. Ross spent time all over California. He was also in San Francisco. The best thing to do is to continue to put pressure on that remaining brother. HE IS THE KEY. So is Bonnie Bartlett. Did anyone find out what the father or Tim died from???? Picture of Ross is great. The more people that see it the better it is to get the truth to come out.

  27. Mike Morford 5 March, 2014 at 10:07 Reply

    Batman, I am right there with you, I am high on Ross as a suspect. It’s going to be an up hill battle trying to get alot of info on him, but we are working to try and find the pieces we need.

  28. BATMAN 12 March, 2014 at 08:02 Reply

    Ross Sullivan’s social security application in 1958 tells a lot more than you gave it credit. LOOK AT THE PRINT OVER LETTERS. The same if you look at the desk in Riverside. He would take the pen and write over some letters harder or over and over again. The blanks are intentional or whited out? The misspelled Syracuse. Look at it again. I am not convinced he killed Cheri Jo Bates. The fingerprints on the Stine cab could be anyone. Do not be fooled by releases from the police that are not the truth. Ross also had small hands and wrist for a person his size….look again.

  29. Mike Morford 12 March, 2014 at 17:10 Reply

    Well, certainly interesting Batman. I was really excited about Ross as a Suspect, and am not completely writing him off. I think more writing samples are needed for sure, and am not completely replying on the police ruling out Ross. By the way, how do you know Ross had small wrists, and hands?

    • BATMAN 18 March, 2014 at 09:20

      I just saw the draft board letters. They are from the Zodiac. I find the most interesting is the one signed from Berkeley. I believe John Sullivan was in Berkeley that found Ross…is this a 3 ring circus????????????

  30. BATMAN 13 March, 2014 at 08:30 Reply

    The picture you have shown. Take a look at his wrist size and hand size. He also is 5’8″ to 5’10” in that photo..very robust…but not over 6′ He could have grown, but I doubt it. THE TIMEX WATCH AND THE GLOVE MEAN NOTHING. HE COULD HAVE PLANTED THEM…OR THEY COULD BE HIS. The next important item is a picture of the 2 brothers…if in fact they are his brothers…TIM AND JON/JOHN. Ask Mr. Katz what they looked like…if he remembers. A driver license would have Ross Sullivan statistics sometime from 1966 to 1977. Also when did he enter that facility of extended care and what for? Who paid? I thank you again. He could have been there 1 week or 3 years…big difference.

  31. obsessed 14 March, 2014 at 07:22 Reply

    Hey everyone, I’ve been following zodiac killer message boards now for 10 years, but this is my first post. I feel like I know most of you personally. I have discerned the posters to skip over from the ones who actually have important insights (morf, welsh chappie, for instance).

    I never posted because I never had much to add to the discussion, but I feel I need to highlight one of the most baffling aspects to this incessantly bafflling cases. I believe cheri jo bates is the key to it all. Here is the issue: cheri jo had her killer’s dna in the palm of her hand (clumps of his hair) as well as under her fingernails. So there is ample dna, right? In the fbi report it states that there is no doubt that whomever wrote the confession letter killed cheri jo, and I despite what anyone says, the writer of the confession letter also wrote the zodiac letters, but the fbi says they only have partial dna, from stine’s cab, and say nothing about riverside… can someone shed some light on this??

  32. obsessed 14 March, 2014 at 08:29 Reply

    Just for the record, I know this matter of dna has been brought up numerous times before, but I can’t help but think it is the most crucial aspect to the case. I get the distinct impression from law enforcement that the dna from stine’s cab does not match dna from cheri jo bates’ killer. Im just left wondering what this all means. Btw, no poi so far has peaked my interest quite as much as ross sullivan. But of course, it cannot possibly add up if the dna does not match.

  33. BATMAN 19 March, 2014 at 07:33 Reply

    The most important thing is to rule out people connected to Ross Sullivan. Any brothers, cousins or others could be connected in more ways than you think. What did this TIM AND JOHN look like? Ross was a major problem but other people may not be innocent.

  34. Mike Morford 21 March, 2014 at 07:30 Reply

    Batman wrote “I just saw the draft board letters. They are from the Zodiac. I find the most interesting is the one signed from Berkeley. I believe John Sullivan was in Berkeley that found Ross…is this a 3 ring circus????????????”

    The draft Board letter is interesting, in a few ways, but nothing definitive to link to zodiac, and I assume, that the police ruled out its Author

  35. Mike Morford 21 March, 2014 at 07:33 Reply

    Batman wrote “The picture you have shown. Take a look at his wrist size and hand size. He also is 5’8″ to 5’10″ in that photo..very robust…but not over 6′ He could have grown, but I doubt it. THE TIMEX WATCH AND THE GLOVE MEAN NOTHING. HE COULD HAVE PLANTED THEM…OR THEY COULD BE HIS. The next important item is a picture of the 2 brothers…if in fact they are his brothers…TIM AND JON/JOHN. Ask Mr. Katz what they looked like…if he remembers. A driver license would have Ross Sullivan statistics sometime from 1966 to 1977. Also when did he enter that facility of extended care and what for? Who paid? I thank you again. He could have been there 1 week or 3 years…big difference.”

    I have a large bone structure myself, and am overweight to boot, and my wrist measures about 7.5 inches, so I am not overly hung up on the wrist watch being sz 7. The pics of Ross’s Brothers ARE Ross’s Brothers. We have attempted to make contact with Family of Ross and former classmates and associates of his , and have been stonewalled.

  36. Mike Morford 21 March, 2014 at 07:36 Reply

    Batman wrote “The most important thing is to rule out people connected to Ross Sullivan. Any brothers, cousins or others could be connected in more ways than you think. What did this TIM AND JOHN look like? Ross was a major problem but other people may not be innocent”

    Sorry, but I think it’s irresponsible to arbitrarily try and link his Relatives to the Z crimes,or Bates crimes. No reason to suspect them that I can see, of any crime. In fact, his own Brother thought Ross was Zodiac. His other Brother was not in the bay area during the Z crimes, and likely wasn’t as up on the case as many that lived around there.

    • BATMAN 12 April, 2014 at 07:21

      You have your opinion and I have mine. Is Tim really dead? Where was his funeral or burial? You see this family is full of many false webs..I believe that Jon is not telling the truth. I also believe no one wants to respond because they are afraid they will be connected. THAT IS ACTUALLY GOOD! The librarian is quite old. I thank her if she was the one that gave the public good information. There is also another brother, Daniel, that has lived in Florida….does anyone know his age or where he may be located? REMEMBER ALL THE VICTIMS

    • BATMAN 20 August, 2014 at 07:11

      WHERE DO YOU KEEP GETTING ROSS WAS 6’2”? The Ross Sullivan from both the school pics is no where near that height. That would mean you are tracking the wrong Ross Sullivan. The right Ross was in the school pics…1. NY 5’5″ 2. GLENDALE maybe 5’8″. He was at Riverside college. He killed Paul Stine. That was the right Ross. Mageau also had him pegged for 5’8″

    • Mike Morford 20 August, 2014 at 08:49

      Batman, the Ross Sullivan that was at RCC and worked in the library IS the same one from Glendale HS, he WAS over 6ft tall, this is a fact, we know this from witnesses, and I have his 1968 news article of his arrest on my site. He was listed in that article as 6ft2 and 300 lbs. If you have facts stating differently, please share them

  37. Mike Morford 21 March, 2014 at 07:43 Reply

    To date, we have reached out to Ross’s Brother, former Sister In law, a Friend that he lived with for a short time, and the librarian that originally suspected him of being the killer of Cheri Jo Bates, all in an effort to clear Ross as a Suspect, and we have not had any positive responses to help. In addition, I emailed 20 former classmates of his simply asking if they remembered Ross from School, and I did not get a single responses, even just to say that they didn’t remember him

    • BATMAN 15 April, 2014 at 09:33

      I want you to go over the Kathleen Johns file. The car she was in had children’s clothes. It was a late model car and it was a mess. Her statements have changed but her description of the suspect and the car remained. Ross did not have children…did Tim, John or Daniel? He used a car and I will bet it was not his.

  38. Mike Morford 12 June, 2014 at 06:09 Reply

    Continuing to dig into Ross Sullivan, he is very promising, ‘IF’ we get more info on him. I am in the process of consulting with a Private Investigator to help-I think it may be worth it

    • BATMAN 18 June, 2014 at 07:44

      I don’t think anyone will be able to get much more information on him except from RIVERSIDE COLLEGE. He already was the full blown creature when he was in that area. You have info on him all over the internet…. I think you should have him look into the brothers or any cousins…

    • BATMAN 2 July, 2014 at 07:21

      GOOD WORK…you might try and contact Dennis Highland or Cheri’s brother if they knew ANY of the Sullivan brothers..ROSS,DANIEL,TIM OR JON. Believe me this family is connected. Also…MENTAL CONSERVERATORSHIP usually indicates someone has control of the purse strings and where the person lives. It may include a social watch. This can be a family member or someone appointed by the court. This person does not have to reside in a mental facility unless they are not under control of bad behavior. They usually are on mental disability pay. I am familiar with quite a few cases. They may get a mental evaluation once a year or more. Also if they have been indicated in criminal behavior they are usually ushered into a mental facility so they do not get arrested!

    • BATMAN 3 July, 2014 at 07:14

      A FEW MORE THINGS…It would be great if her boyfriend, her brother or someone else credible could give you a description of the brothers. No one seems to know what they look like. That Lake Berryessa sketch appeared to have a wig/not real hair and the weight given as NOT SLOPPY by more than 1 person. We know through Bryan Hartnell he was sloppy fat. Also if they knew Bonnie from the High School days. DID CHERI GO TO SF FOR THEIR WEDDING? No one mentioned anyone but Stephanie as her friend. Remember in the auto sightings there were 2 males!

  39. Manto Mokhenea 6 July, 2014 at 15:37 Reply

    LOL! I like how the pushers of “suspect” Ross—twisting the facts and giving him a pass regarding his body weight—are the same amateur detectives claiming that Arthur Leigh Allen was way too heavy to be a viable suspect.

  40. Mike Morford 7 July, 2014 at 04:03 Reply

    So, Manto, how much did Ross weigh in 1969? Do you know? I would bet I know more than you about him, and I can’t answer the question,so I doubt you can either.

    The only likely answer is that Ross was overweight, chubby, fat, etc, however you want to describe him, but we don’t know to what degree. How was Zodiac described by the two Victims at Lake Berryessa? Sloppy, bulky, overweight, a belly hanging over. That’s probably how one might describe Ross.

    I can’t speak for Anybody else, but as far as Allen goes, I personally have never liked him because NONE of the physical evidence, writing, etc, matches Allen. He didn’t look like the sketch.

    I think there are people so high on Ross because of two main things. First, he looks identical to the SFPD sketch. That’s easy, coincidence or not, Ross Sullivan is identical to the sketch right down to the hairline. Next up, we can place Ross Sullivan in the RCC Library where the desk poem was found, and where Cheri visited the night of the murder. Ross knew Cheri, and vice versa. These are all facts. This is the ONLY Suspect that can be proven to have been in that RCC Library. To dismiss Ross base on these facts, would be foolish. At the same time, I personally am proceeding with caution, which is why I hired a private Investigator. If it can be proven that Ross was never in Vallejo, or was so fat that he couldn’t get out of his house, etc, these would be things that would rule him out for me.

    Until Ross can be ruled out, just how many people do you think were dead ringers for the SFPD Zodiac sketch, and can be placed in the RCC Library? That must be a really short list.

    • Manto Mokhenea 8 July, 2014 at 12:46

      So, Morford, according to your own words posted on other sites (including yours) you are cherry-picking, based upon a given poi/suspect what you perceive as material evidence in this case. Here’s what you had to say earlier this year about Owen:

      “[James Owen’s] Face has overall shape of Zodiac perhaps, but not sure I put a ton of stock in the sketch. I try not to dwell on zodiac’s physical descriptions too much, because after 40+ years, that has gotten us no place.”

      http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=122&start=40#p15291

      I’m not going to get into a back-and-forth on Mr. Cole’s site; just please try to be a bit more consistent and responsible with the many statements that you are making around the Web.

      None of the writing matches Allen? Mr. Morford, are you serious? This is a notoriously confounding serial murder case in no small part because the Zodiac’s own writing exemplars from month-to-month and missive-to-missive don’t match each other! He was obviously experimenting (successfully, as far as eluding identification) with diverse styles and subterfuge.

      Furthermore, your repeated statements about Ross Sullivan being placed in the RCC library are misleading readers. Are you telling us that you have proof that Sullivan was in the library on the day/evening of Cheri Jo Bate’s murder? [Did he also drive a car that looked like a Studebaker?]

      Please be precise when conveying such critical CIRCUMSTANCE or FACT.

      In case you want to divert to the DNA “evidence” as it relates to any given suspect, I note that you already have an informative thread on this very topic at your own site:

      http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1460&star t=30#p16194

    • BATMAN 26 July, 2014 at 07:21

      GREAT WORK..I like that the family will not help you. SOUNDS GUILTY TO ME. Tim may have been a partner with Ross…or perhaps someone else in the family. The key IS THIS FAMILY. Ross was not 6’3″. He would have to grow from 5’8″ in high school. That is 7″….That did not happen. People are throwing you curve balls. Jon stated he could not take care of himself. Didn’t the death certificate state that he had worked as a dishwasher 2 years ago? That was 1975.

    • BATMAN 16 August, 2014 at 07:10

      Please post a photo of Tim and Jon Sullivan. The public needs to know what these 2 looked like as teenagers or in their 20’s. It could be a school photo. Any info on Daniel? How old is he? THANKS!

    • BATMAN 21 August, 2014 at 07:18

      You need to find out the stats of his brothers. I would like to see a pic of them. The picture, again, of Ross as a senior is nowhere 6’2″. I do not believe Ross acted alone on all the various murders…and there were more than you have reported…Do the brothers look like him? I also am not convinced that Ross killed Bates. It does not matter to me if he is 5’5″ or 6’5″. I am very familiar with males that are 5’8″ to 5’10” and are 300 pounds and they look massive. It depends on the body proportions. How do you know that arrest is for the right Ross Mercer Sullivan? Is there a pic????

  41. Mike Morford 21 August, 2014 at 12:30 Reply

    There are pics floating around of at least one of his Brothers, I don’t recall where, but I think on my site. The pic(s) I have seen of his Brother(s) do not look like Ross,at least in my opinion.

    While I agree with you about various people wearing their weight differently from others, I don’t know how you can gauge the pics of Ross, and come up with a height, when there’s nothing in the photos of a known height to judge. We have witnesses saying Ross was over 6ft tall, and a news article verifying it, which is good enough for me.

    The arrest article is for the right Ross Sullivan. It lines up well with what the reporter that came up with the info years ago, stated. How many 300 pound guys from Riverside were busted for indecent exposure in Santa Cruz in 1968? Although his name is not mentioned in the article, I am highly confident this is our Man-
    http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=1820

    I want this case to be over, and to put it behind us, and if I could place Ross in Vallejo/Napa/SF area in 1968-74, I would pretty much be ready to call it case closed in my mind, but we have nothing that proves he was ever there. Trust me, I think he is a very good Suspect, but I also need proof for myself.

    As far as Ross’s Brothers being involved in some fashion, well I can’t see any evidence of that either. That’s not a road I plan to travel down, but you are welcome to your own opinions.

    What we are left with, is a Guy who was in the RCC Library, looked identical to the SFPD sketch of Zodiac, and wound up migrating north from Riverside to Santa Cruz. Beyond that, we have no proof of anything. Santa Cruz is not super close to Vallejo, and we have no evidence of Ross owning or shooting weapons, but he’s worth continuing to dig into as a Suspect

    • BATMAN 27 August, 2014 at 07:14

      You must be talking about the pic with the dark hair and yellow tape over the eyes. That reminds of the Lake Berryessa sketch that was watching the girls. That looked like a wig or styled hair. Perhaps that was Jon. I will not believe Ross is 6’2′ unless I see an autopsy or a mug shot with the height chart behind him. I am an excellent judge of height. Katz is a loose horse. He has had an alternate lifestyle. So has Sirrine.

    • Mike Morford 27 August, 2014 at 13:01

      Regardless of what lifestyle Katz has lived, he has been right on target regarding Ross, and gave us most of what we know about Ross. Before him, Joann Bailey the RCC librarian had also been on the mark

  42. Mike Morford 27 August, 2014 at 13:03 Reply

    Regardless of what kind of lifestyle Katz has lived, he has been right on the money regarding Ross, and most of what we know about Ross, we have him to thank. RCC librarian Joann Bailey was also on the mark regarding Ross

    • BATMAN 4 September, 2014 at 07:27

      I knew Katz would not come through! Have you tried to contact your best source which is Ralph Hernandez Zuniga? He was the last person to see Cheri on the campus. He may remember Ross, Tim or Jon also. He may know the friends of Cheri Jo like Donna. Did you ever find out Donna’s last name? A supposed last phone call. Daniel still remains the mystery.

  43. Zodiac Case Newbie 28 August, 2014 at 13:02 Reply

    “What we are left with, is a Guy who was in the RCC Library . . . .”

    I’m a newbie, but now I am really keyed-in to Ross as a BIG suspect! I had no idea that law enforcement placed him in the Riverside City College library on the day of Cheri Jo Bates murder!

    Thank you for continuing to provide such factual case info.

    -Sobie

  44. BATMAN 25 September, 2014 at 07:25 Reply

    The fire on the bus article is a must see for everyone. Harold Sullivan is short, stocky and has sandy hair…looks like Ross..so does Jonathan! Amazing the fire started in the luggage area and Jonathan was on that bus!

  45. BATMAN 1 October, 2014 at 07:17 Reply

    CAN SOMEONE FIND A PICTURE OF TIMOTHY S. OR B. SULLIVAN FROM RAMONA HIGH SCHOOL OR LATER? TIM HAS USED 2 DIFFERENT MIDDLE INTIALS…I am very interested in his birth date and his exact date of death, which is impossible to find! Another criminal in the family???????????

  46. BATMAN 15 November, 2014 at 08:13 Reply

    Voight was on the show COAST TO COAST last night from 1 am to 3 am. Nothing exciting…he is still hooked on Gaikowski…however…he did mention a letter to the DMV that was confirmed to be written by the Zodiac and no one has seen. He is trying to get it and no luck. The public needs to see a picture of Tim…again…if anyone can get one from Ramona High School or any place else. The draft letter that had come from Syracuse was probably Tim’s. Believe me his family is a problem.

  47. BATMAN 13 June, 2015 at 07:51 Reply

    I am still waiting for a picture of Timothy Sullivan to be posted…no luck?? The only thing left is a contact to Arthur Dean Ferrin or Michael Mageau in reference to Ross Sullivan. They need to look at the pics…he did not change…That does not mean they knew his name. The fact is Ross knew Vallejo. Could he have worked as a busboy,dishwasher,etc for a short time in 1969 or did he just frequent the area on weekends or when he was off??? Ross is unforgettable. His slow drawn out monotone speech pattern, slight limp, thick glasses with drooping eye and big girth. He also had small hands for his size. Ross was in this area and San Francisco. I also believe his brothers were there too.

  48. BATMAN 15 July, 2015 at 07:45 Reply

    Jon will never give you any information or anyone else directly connected to Ross….CAN’T YOU FIGURE OUT WHY???

  49. bitterbeatpoet 19 September, 2015 at 19:08 Reply

    hey Mike Powers, when it comes to this case, reservations
    are always in order. it appears Batman is saying Ross’ brothers
    were complicit in the Z crimes too. i have reservations about that
    also. however, Ross’ brother Jon claims he didn’t even know Ross
    to be violent…consequently he couldn’t have been Zodiac. i would
    have to believe that statement is less than truthful. Jon was Ross’
    guardian the last years of his life and would have had interaction
    with mental health workers that dealt with Ross. we know of at least
    two times Ross had been arrested/committed for violent behavior.
    it would seem the only reason Ross didn’t go to jail is because they
    thought he was too crazy. so where does that leave Jon Sullivan
    now? it would appear between that old rock and a hard place. and
    as Batman said to Morf. he isn’t going to give up anything.

    • BATMAN 10 March, 2016 at 08:14

      Still looking for the photo of Tim Sullivan that was posted on another site. I cannot see it. It is restricted. Do not think for one moment that Tim was not part of the whole Zodiac crime spree. Let everyone see the pic on this site and any other site you have started. …maybe something good will come of this.

    • BATMAN 8 March, 2017 at 08:10

      STILL WAITING FOR THE PICTURE OF TIM SULLIVAN. NOTHING PROVES HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD ,or at least had died after 2000. Jon Sullivan looked like Ross, did Tim? The picture from the bus fire shows he looked like a young Ross…where’s the pic of Tim from school???????oin the discussion

    • Michael Cole
      Michael Cole 14 March, 2016 at 20:46

      Time keeps slipping away. It’s getting more and more difficult to imagine a day when we know for certain what happened. I’m still cautiously optimistic, but…

    • J Reynolds 6 June, 2016 at 18:14

      I heard somewhere that Ross Sullivan didn’t drive, so that if true hurts his viability as a suspect. This case will never be solved. It’s the American equivalent to jack the ripper. Sketchy police work, lack of witnesses, and not much evidence left behind. Too many suspects, and an overflow of circumstantial evidence. I do agree Sullivan is a strong suspect, but nothing will ever be proven. If only he had been considered a possibility in 1969 and after. (similar to Charles Cross back in 1888)

  50. Jim3468 2 March, 2017 at 18:40 Reply

    I still believe Cheri Jo’s killer was either someone she was acquainted with or trusted..(police officer ?),just do not feel it was the Zodiac..even though Cheri Jo apparently put up a hell of a fight..it was too sloppy for the Zodiac..too spur of the moment ( he apparently did not catch her totally off guard ). Sullivan shure it an interesting suspect tho !

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